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Originally Published: Tuesday, 11 September 2001 Author: IRC Staff
Published to: interact_articles_irc_recap/IRC Recap Page: 1/1 - [Std View]

No Strings Attached: Recaps from LinuxWorld

LinuxWorld and a few more Live! presentations are over. We went through two setups of a wireless network using Linux at LinuxWorld this year. Now that it's all over, it's time to look back at the presentations and view some IRC logs from the events.

21:04:05 --- Topic for #live is The 'No Strings Attached' event starts at 1pm PDT - Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco
21:04:05 --- Topic for #live set by xeno42 at Tue Aug 28 20:32:38
21:06:33 ok
21:06:39 we're now beginning the event!
21:07:50 hello!
21:08:20 the cards we'll be using in this event will be Lucent Wavelan Cards
21:08:29 the brand is orinico at the moment
21:08:38 though it seems the cards get renamed every other day
21:09:05 * Beret <-- voice of the tradeshow floor to the internet
21:09:12 --> sl4ck0ff (Andrew@cr492646-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com) has joined #live
21:09:13 --> Pollita (sarag@adsl-216-103-89-106.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #live
21:09:23 --> lc-show (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:09:26 <-- NightFang (nightfang@cc43093-a.abdn1.md.home.com) has left #live
21:09:32 time to get started all
21:09:38 --> todin (todin@usr1369-har.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #live
21:09:50 --> Johnny-O (adam@snort.org) has joined #live
21:09:52 --- xeno42 has changed the topic to: The 'No Strings Attached' event has started - Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco - Please direct your questions to lcModerator at the end of the installation
21:10:12 we're going to start off with a couple of definitions
21:10:13 <-- lc-show has quit (Read error to lc-show[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:10:21 what is 802.11 mean?
21:10:25 what does it mean?
21:10:29 --> lc-show (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:10:51 the 11Mbit wireless standard, earlier versions were called 802.11-FHSS and
21:10:51 802.11-DSS with a maxium rate of 2Mbit.
21:11:03 --> Aaton (bofh@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:11:27 all the 802.X standards are related to ethernet
21:11:30 --> Xunil96 (xunil@zoloft.xunil.net) has joined #live
21:11:33 and all have the same basic framework
21:11:33 --> toolafial (heath@dhcp5-249.calderasystems.com) has joined #live
21:11:41 (concepts of transmission, etc)
21:11:50 <-- Xunil96 (xunil@zoloft.xunil.net) has left #live
21:12:02 we're going to deal with security later in the event
21:12:33 so what do we need to setup a wireless network?
21:12:56 <-- Chunk_ (nate@sporting.a.beefhelmet.com) has left #live
21:12:58 we need at least two endpoints to the network
21:13:14 one may be connected to another network (such as the internet), those are usually dubbed "access points" or "gateways"
21:13:14 --> ChipX86 (chipx86@lilo.cx) has joined #live
21:13:22 whilst the other node woudl be the client
21:13:27 here today we're going to use a laptop and a desktop
21:13:34 one machine is a pIII 450
21:13:54 --> Beret- (beret@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:14:01 --> keebler_ (keebler@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
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21:14:09 <-- keebler_ has quit (Write error to keebler_[204.192.63.93], closing link)
21:14:15 although, anything up from a 386 would work..
21:14:18 <-- jrocha has quit (Signed off)
21:14:38 --> Beret_ (beret@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:14:44 --- Dazman gives channel operator status to Beret_
21:14:48 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:15:01 --> keyblur (keebler@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:15:03 --> Uriah (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:15:04 we have debian installed on both machines
21:15:06 we're getting volunteers to man the stations
21:15:06 --> marius- (marius@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:15:14 --- Dazman gives channel operator status to marius-
21:15:18 <-- JALH (root@pratchett.openprojects.net) has left #live
21:15:18 --> JALH (root@pratchett.openprojects.net) has joined #live
21:15:18 <-- JALH (root@pratchett.openprojects.net) has left #live
21:15:18 --> JALH (root@pratchett.openprojects.net) has joined #live
21:15:44 we have installed Linux kernel version 2.4.7
21:15:45 <-- keebler has quit (Ping timeout for keebler[204.192.63.93])
21:15:57 and we are using pcmcia-cs version 3.1.28
21:16:17 <-- lc-show has quit (Ping timeout for lc-show[204.192.63.93])
21:16:17 <-- Aaton has quit (Ping timeout for Aaton[204.192.63.93])
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21:16:30 <-- marius has quit (Ping timeout for marius[204.192.63.93])
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21:16:34 what do we need enabled in the kernel in order to setup wireless networking?
21:16:35 <-- Beret has quit (Ping timeout for Beret[204.192.63.93])
21:16:47 <-- keyblur has quit (Signed off)
21:17:12 module support, iptables, disable pcmcia and enable wireless networking
21:17:13 you need wireless networking support, pcmcia support (since we are using pcmcia cards) as well as drivers for the specific card you have
21:17:14 <-- Beret- has quit (Ping timeout for Beret-[204.192.63.93])
21:17:16 --> keebler (keebler@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:17:20 xeno42: ah
21:17:36 marius-: if you're using external pcmcia modules, then you don't need the pcmcia support in the kernel though
21:17:45 in this case we are
21:17:48 xeno42: this is true
21:17:51 we've installed pcmcia-cs already
21:17:55 so what do we do next?
21:18:04 --> Rhap101 (Digital@c795968-a.aurora1.co.home.com) has joined #live
21:18:18 should we insert cards?
21:18:18 <-- pickle_hammer has quit (Signed off)
21:18:18 should we insert cards?
21:18:18 <-- pickle_hammer has quit (Signed off)
21:18:22 <-- robs (robs@62.211.160.61) has left #live
21:18:35 need to install your new kernel and the pcmcia package and the wireless tools package
21:18:41 ah
21:18:43 wireless tools
21:18:46 we should install wireless tools
21:18:46 <-- jonathon (jonathon@c795968-a.aurora1.co.home.com) has left #live
21:18:53 <-- Rias (thomas@io.stderr.net) has left #live
21:18:58 wireless tools provide nice tools to configure your wireless card
21:19:17 and install the wireless cards in each machine that's participating in the wireless network
21:20:00 so what's next?
21:20:11 we've installed wireless tools
21:20:21 when do we build the gateway?
21:20:47 marius-: what's involved in wireless tools?
21:21:05 at the core of wireless tools is a utility called 'iwconfig'
21:21:20 it provides a method to set configuration options for your wireless cards
21:21:26 what is the range of these cards?
21:21:29 such as what mode it is in, the name of the network, wep and such
21:21:47 --> ShortWave (bobby@66.61.24.194) has joined #live
21:21:47 what are the range of these cards?
21:21:49 anyone know?
21:21:56 indoors, between 30m and 100m
21:22:04 the range really depends on the kind of environment you're in. depending on whethere there are a lot of obstacles around, you can get almost a 100 meteres
21:22:16 outdoors, 300m or so, depending on cards
21:22:20 wow
21:22:22 of course, the signals propagate more easily outdoors
21:22:22 that's impressive
21:22:23 --- marius- gives channel operator status to keebler
21:22:48 the range also depends on the type of card. different cards have different transmitting power, external antennas, etc.
21:23:05 also, the power that you are allowed to transmit is limited, since it is in an unlicenced band
21:23:05 --> nategrey (nategrey@void.openbsd.org.br) has joined #live
21:23:09 <-- mzx (max@adsl4684.estpak.ee) has left #live
21:23:28 30m is about 100 feet
21:23:37 <-- nategrey (nategrey@void.openbsd.org.br) has left #live
21:23:43 <-- pdo (user1@ogrady-net.demon.co.uk) has left #live
21:23:50 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:23:52 so should we edit wireless.opts file now?
21:23:56 or do we need to do that?
21:24:13 the rules for power output and antenna gain can be found part 15 of the FCC rules
21:24:14 technically, it is not needed - but it is nice, since it provides an automated configuration interface for your wireless card
21:24:38 --> Uriah (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:24:41 <-- Johnny-O has quit (Signed off)
21:24:42 iwconfig eth1 esid "lclive"
21:24:48 we can run a command like that
21:25:02 (i.e. when you put the card in, it gets assigned an appropriate essid, ip, and so on)
21:25:10 <-- Rhap101 (Digital@c795968-a.aurora1.co.home.com) has left #live
21:25:10 --> Rhap101 (Digital@c795968-a.aurora1.co.home.com) has joined #live
21:25:15 iwconfig eth1 essid "lclive"
21:25:20 of course, that is less relevant with wireless since you usually roam around, but pcmcia-cs has options for changing as well (called 'profiles')
21:25:29 --> JacobBrown (proxy@cs2892-235.austin.rr.com) has joined #live
21:25:34 that will create an ssid "lclive" if there isn't one to join
21:25:38 An ESSID is an "Extended Service Set ID" - Used to identify which network you're talking to
21:26:18 <-- lang (lang@linux-dhcp.molbio.ku.dk) has left #live
21:26:28 eth1 is the Linux device name of the wireless network card in the gateway machine; this machine has a normal network card in it as well, which is eth0
21:26:29 <-- Aaton- has quit (Signed off)
21:27:23 <-- Rhap101 has quit (Signed off)
21:27:26 now we'll bring up the interface
21:27:29 <-- koudelka has quit (Signed off)
21:27:30 with ifconfig like you would normally
21:27:35 for example
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21:27:48 /sbin/ifconfig eth1 192.168.1.1 netmask 255.255.255.0 up
21:28:08 that would assign the iop adress 192.168.1.1 to the eth1 interface
21:28:15 yep
21:28:22 The goal here is for the laptop on the show floor to talk to gateway machine over the wireless network, and for the gateway machine to forward network connections to the Internet from it's wireless eth1 card ti it's eth0 network card
21:28:31 --> dabeej_ (dabeej@cs2416211-64.houston.rr.com) has joined #live
21:28:55 the 192.168.0.0/16 block is special because it is an externally unrouteable ip block (actually a B class network); this is one that everyone is free to use in a way not connected to the internet
21:29:30 after bringing this interface up, the only thing left to do, is setup IP Masquerading on the gateway so that it will forward traffice onto the internet interface
21:29:37 <-- malaclypse (lon@adsl-216-144-164-150.dejazzd.com) has left #live
21:29:53 first
21:29:58 --- marius- gives channel operator status to [mbm]
21:29:58 we'll neable ip forwarding in the kernel
21:30:00 to do this
21:30:03 we'll do this
21:30:14 echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
21:30:14 "IP Masquerading" is a method for 'hiding' more than one computer behind a single IP address
21:30:39 <[mbm]> (it's a small subset of NAT)
21:30:40 it's useful if say you have several computers at home, and one dsl or cable connection
21:30:42 or even one modem
21:30:58 it will allow you to connect several computers with only one connection
21:31:04 in any situation where you are allocated only one external ip (that is routeable to the ineternet) - it is the thing to do
21:31:07 or use
21:31:07 --> Xnix (xnix@dsl-64-194-111-141.telocity.com) has joined #live
21:31:10 after we've enabled forwarding in the kernel
21:31:24 we'll now give an iptables command to masquerade the network
21:31:30 for example
21:31:36 /sbin/iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE -s 192.168.1.0/24
21:31:55 though looking complicated, it's really not
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21:32:12 <-- dabeej_ (dabeej@cs2416211-64.houston.rr.com) has left #live
21:32:17 <-- jc (jc@200.210.47.10) has left #live
21:32:24 here we are telling the tcp/ip stack in the kernel that it is ok to masquerade anyone from the 192.168.1.[1-254] range
21:32:25 <-- punch (brian@uncontrolled.org) has left #live
21:32:46 and to forward those packets to the eth0 interface
21:32:59 (which is the one that is assigned an ip on the internet)
21:33:01 if you think about, it's quite impressive, because with one command, you're telling Linux to route some traffic
21:33:08 cheapest router I've seen :-)
21:33:37 we've overlooked one thing here on the showfloor
21:33:44 iptables is not installed :)
21:33:51 we're apt-get installing iptables
21:33:55 apt-get install iptables :)
21:34:13 iptables is the IP packet filter administration tool
21:34:16 <[mbm]> minor note, you might wish to add "iptables -A FORWARD -i eth0 -m state --state NEW,INVALID -j REJECT" since you enabled forwarding but didn't restrict it any
21:34:18 apt-get is a command used to install packages with Debian, for those that don't know
21:34:32 it's used to setup, maintain, and inspect the tables of the IP packet filter rules in the Linux kernel
21:34:38 severla different tables may be defined
21:34:38 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:34:48 each table contains a number of built-in chains and may also contain user-defined chains
21:34:50 iptables may also be used to set up firewalling rules
21:34:52 it's quite customizable
21:35:27 <-- penguinator (joshi@130.219.113.131) has left #live
21:35:39 we're now done with the gateway
21:35:40 --> Uriah (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:35:45 we're going to start configuring the client machine now
21:36:24 Jessica has informed a member of the audience, they'll have to win the lottery before she lets them up on the stage
21:36:35 they seem to have an 'rm -rf / &' command running through their head
21:36:35 :)
21:36:47 we have a new volunteer to help configure the client
21:37:00 with the client it's nearly the same as the gateway as far as setting up
21:37:09 so for example
21:37:14 we already have linux 2.4.7 installed
21:37:18 and pcmcia-cs 3.1.28
21:37:25 so we're going to do our iwconfig command again
21:37:56 we're going to install wireless-tools and iptables on the client first
21:38:18 --> gREMLiNs (kittie@195.252.64.35) has joined #live
21:38:33 now, we can remove the pcmcia ethernet card in the laptop
21:38:38 and insert our wireless card
21:38:53 <-- SLaYeR (Mandrake@6534110hfc71.tampabay.rr.com) has left #live
21:38:53 (as soon as everything is done being installed)
21:38:53 <-- SLaYeR (Mandrake@6534110hfc71.tampabay.rr.com) has left #live
21:38:53 (as soon as everything is done being installed)
21:39:31 our iwconfig will nearly be the same
21:39:34 it will be something like
21:39:41 /usr/sbin/iwconfig eth0 essid "lclive"
21:39:51 eth0 because now it is the only ethernet card in the machine
21:40:06 we can ignore the error that it reports
21:40:12 as it will still work appropriately
21:40:29 now we can bring up the interface
21:40:29 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:40:29 now we can bring up the interface
21:40:29 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:40:41 /sbin/ifconfig eth0 192.168.1.2 netmask 255.255.255.0 up
21:40:49 that will bring up the client interface
21:41:48 --> Beret- (beret@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:41:48 "lclive" is an arbitrary identifier that's been picked for our new wireless network
21:42:03 could have chosen anything, as long as both machines used the same identifier
21:42:15 <-- Beret- has quit (Read error to Beret-[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:42:15 --> keebler_ (keebler@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:42:18 all clients need to have the same ESSID to be able to talk to each other.
21:45:33 I think our friends on the show floor are having a few connections problems; stay with us
21:46:46 if anyone has any questions about what we've covered so far, /msg lcModerator with them please
21:46:52 --> Beret- (beret@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:46:59 --- Dazman gives channel operator status to Beret-
21:47:09 dolbe asked 'how can an Orinoco router compare to setting up a homemade box? besides the price'
21:47:10 <-- gREMLiNs has quit (Signed off)
21:47:38 plug and play
21:47:47 as well as it comes with an 'external' antenna
21:47:57 marius__: can you setup a non 'ad-hoc' network with Linux do you know?
21:48:03 Access Points work in a different mode don't they?
21:48:06 yes, easier setup and probably a wider range. dedicated access points tend to be able to handle more traffic than ad-hoc/bss mode
21:48:54 --> Ralphis (Ralphis@cn688446-a.wall1.pa.home.com) has joined #live
21:48:55 <[mbm]> xeno42: access points tend to work in infrastructure mode where as cards will generally be in adhoc mode
21:49:18 --> NCorreia (haha@217.129.229.111) has joined #live
21:49:19 <[mbm]> adhoc is just point to point, infrastructure is managed
21:49:31 so there is some advantage to buying an access point if you're setting up a larger wireless network then
21:49:45 <-- darkstar54 (darkstar@207.35.163.28) has left #live
21:50:01 <-- NCorreia (haha@217.129.229.111) has left #live
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21:50:48 dolbe asks if you can have more than one card running with Linux and setup a multi-point connection
21:51:21 <[mbm]> ofcourse.
21:51:31 <-- Ralphis (Ralphis@cn688446-a.wall1.pa.home.com) has left #live
21:51:47 <[mbm]> only issue to watch out for is conflicting netmasks
21:52:09 <-- ZarcyB (zarcyb@pc-62-31-70-113-ed.blueyonder.co.uk) has left #live
21:52:23 <-- search has quit (zelazny.openprojects.net card.openprojects.net)
21:53:36 are there any problems with frequencies clashing if you have more than one card in a box?
21:54:38 <[mbm]> 802.11b uses the DSS standard, digital spread spectrum .. you don't need to worry too much about reusing the same channel and the unique essid's will help keep things separate
21:55:27 well, the guys at LWCE should be pretty much done by now -- At the point they left us they were very nearly finished
21:55:31 what was left?
21:55:37 --> miro (miro@p3EE010E8.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #live
21:55:38 <[mbm]> you may run into issues with microwaves, portable phones and other high power devices causing a few lost packet
21:55:40 they had the laptop up and running, and the gateway
21:55:59 i would imagine they are onto the testing stage right now.
21:56:28 <[mbm]> no doubt surfing linux.com with it
21:56:32 They needed to add scripts to their /etc/init.d and /etc/rc2.d directories so that the network would automatically be setup at boot time
21:57:11 and we were going to briefly cover wireless security
21:57:15 so let's go ahead and do that
21:57:36 would someone like to define what WEP is, and what the current problems with it are?
21:57:39 --> search (search@geeks.nerdfest.org) has joined #live
21:58:04 <[mbm]> wired equvilant privacy
21:58:48 <[mbm]> there's some issues with flaws in the keyspace limiting the potential combinations
21:59:34 <[mbm]> certain cards based on the prism2 chipset are cablable of capuring the raw packets in attempts to crack the password
22:00:17 <[mbm]> a task made easier by the fact that some wireless setupi programs only let you use A-Z (7bit ascii) for the WEP key
22:01:01 <-- Uriah- has quit (Read error to Uriah-[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
22:01:09 so
22:01:19 WEP provides you with some security, but not a lot
22:01:27 <[mbm]> If you depend on secure wireless communications you should probably tunnel through your own encryption rather than depending on WEP
22:01:36 --> Uriah- (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
22:01:54 <-- Anarkavre (anarkavre@151.201.249.236) has left #live
22:01:57 <[mbm]> it's secure enough to prevent the casual user from stumbling on the network but not much above that
22:02:19 so perhaps we should treat wireless networks like we treat the internet as far as security goes?
22:02:32 if you need it to be secure, use a secure protocol, like ssh, SSL (https web pages), etc
22:02:39 <-- Uriah- has quit (Signed off)
22:02:48 <[mbm]> definately, if you access a shell over wireless, ssh our such is recommended
22:02:58 is WEP difficult to setup with Linux?
22:03:12 (if anyone has any questions, please /msg lcModerator)
22:03:18 <[mbm]> iwconfig will let you enter in the wep keys easily enough
22:03:36 <[mbm]> all that's required is that all stations use teh same wep key
22:03:49 dolbe would like to know if anyone has recommendations for one make of wireless card over another
22:05:02 <[mbm]> depending on your budget and compatibility concerns you may still be able to find 2Mbit 802.11-FHSS cards for cheap
22:05:33 <-- Beret- has quit (http://beret.net)
22:05:34 <[mbm]> these cards are based on an older standard incompatible with the current 11Mbit protocols but the price tradeoff generally makes them interesting
22:06:05 <[mbm]> most of the new cards are based either on the prism2 chipset or the orinaco
22:06:32 L0ki wonders when 'full frame support' will be included in the wvlan/orinoco drivers.. anyone know anything about that?
22:06:39 <[mbm]> which means that most any card will work fine in linux, the difference being mostly the brand name on the thing
22:07:46 <[mbm]> no idea.
22:09:15 * keebler_ is away [autogone:20/l:on]
22:09:38 <[mbm]> oh for whoever asked about cards - some of the early cards lacked any decent wep support and lacked teh 'short preamble' type, when you're looking for a card see if it's got the wi-fi logo
22:09:54 ProAtWork asks 'my experience with cs and access points is wep does not work reliably.. does anyone have experience and better luck?'
22:10:29 <[mbm]> I've had no issues with wep, although considering I use some older cards I generally leave it off
22:10:51 <[mbm]> one problem that may occur is the lack of support for short preamble types
22:10:56 It's a shame that we've lost the connection with the show floor; I'm sure they have things up and running nicely there now
22:11:00 <[mbm]> this is a smaller packet header used by new cards
22:11:22 <[mbm]> you may have to reconfigure your access point for long preamble
22:11:26 With that in mind I'm going to un-moderate the channel so if you'd like to ask a question you can ask it directly
22:11:31 --- xeno42 sets mode -m #live
22:11:43 <-- hectate has quit ([BX] Time wasted: all of it)
22:11:51 we will be posting a log and a followup of this event to the linux.com web site in the near future
22:12:08 and the event will be running again tomorrow at 4pm PST
22:12:17 xeno42 but the pre-amble would be a function of the card in the AP yes?
22:12:18 er
22:12:29 correction: 4:30pm PDT tommorow
22:12:36 so if all the same cards are the same on the network I wonder why I had issues.. odd
22:12:58 --- mantra_ is now known as mantra
22:13:13 thanks guys :)
22:13:15 exit
22:13:17 <-- dolbe has quit (dolbe has no reason)
22:13:30 --> pytheus (imorg@66-90-179-192.grandecom.net) has joined #live
22:13:48 that was saucy
22:13:52 :D
22:14:01 <[mbm]> ProAtWork: newer wireless cards support both long and short preamble types
22:14:03 <-- mantra (mantra@06-202.024.popsite.net) has left #live
22:14:23 I don't know how old my cards are
22:15:06 <[mbm]> set them all to long preamble and you shouldn't run into that issue
22:15:26 <[mbm]> some cards have a flashrom for firmware updates so check the manufacturer
22:15:46 ok.. I don't remember seeing that option.. I do try to stay on latest firmware
22:16:01 --- xeno42 has changed the topic to: That was the 'No Strings Attached' event Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco - Same event will be running again tomorrow at 4:30pm PDT (29/Aug)
22:16:22 <[mbm]> also, there's different encryption lengs for wep
22:16:32 anyone know how cisco's cards are for raw frames?
22:16:35 <[mbm]> 60bit (same as 56bit) and 128
22:16:53 <[mbm]> 56 and 60 operate togather but don't work with 128
22:17:33 all my cards are 56bit
22:18:10 <[mbm]> 128bit encryption is a recent thing, linksys added support for it in their latest firmware
22:18:14 also no one talked about mac filtering on the APs, is that worth anything?
22:18:35 [mbm]: but 128bit encryption doesn't do you a lot more good as far as real security goes does it?
22:18:57 wrt the recent security problems with WEP I mean
22:19:00 <[mbm]> xeno42: does more than 56 but I wouldn't depend on it totally
22:19:00 Has anyone here gotten a host AP working on a prism card?
22:19:04 increasing key length doesn't do a lot for you
22:19:22 <[mbm]> xeno42: increases the keyspace in doing so
22:20:10 <[mbm]> ProAtWork: mac filtering works if you're not using wep or you're worries about someone cracking your wep password but it's somewhat of a pain to have to reconfigure it each time you add a card to the netword
22:20:16 <[mbm]> -network
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22:21:59 zanee asked me earlier: can you explain the difference between 802.11a and 802.11b including the talks of the new turbo mode with transmission rates of up to like 100mbps
22:22:10 <-- garrett (garrett@cc295195-a.bartlett1.ga.home.com) has left #live (later)
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22:23:07 <[mbm]> actually ieee is offering the pdf's of all the 802 protocols, been meaning to grab teh 802.11a one
22:23:24 <[mbm]> I'm sure the answer is in therel although not likely in plain english
22:24:12 <[mbm]> (http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/802.11.html)
22:24:20 brb
22:26:33 If Microwaves use 2.4GHz also, does that mean I can use a wireless card to cook my food?
22:27:05 yes, but you need a high-gain amplifier
22:27:26 <[mbm]> JacobBrown: actually it's not the microwave itself but rather a side effect of the high voltages used
00:32:13 we're live from the show floor
00:33:18 I'll be inputting what Dean says
00:33:19 Okay, I'll make the channel moderated - If anyone has questions during hte event, please /msg lcModerator
00:33:23 --- xeno42 sets mode +m #live
00:33:41 I know he's going to want to start off with definitions of wireless networking, and 802.11b
00:33:58 we've got a volunteer to work on the gateway
00:34:39 stats on the cards: Orinico 802.11b Silvers from Lucent
00:34:54 dean's talking about live! now; he just introduced gareth
00:34:55 Okay, so a wireless network consists of computers equiped with radio-frequency network cards instead of the normal wired-network cards.. 802.11b defines a standard for these cards to use
00:34:58 wave to the crowd, gareth :)
00:35:04 * xeno42 waves!
00:35:27 So the first thing we're going to do is set up the gateway
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00:35:45 and a gateway is a central access point that all the computers on the network connect to
00:35:47 With the 802.11b standard, cards from different manufacturers conforming to the standard will interoperate with each other
00:36:17 --- xeno42 has changed the topic to: Current event is the 'No Strings Attached' event Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco - Learn how to setup a wireless (802.11b) network with Linux! /msg lcModerator with your questions
00:36:33 we're checking to see if the card works (if the computer sees it)
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00:36:54 by doing cat /var/lib/pcmcia or something similar (I didn't quite hear it)
00:37:06 there are a variety of ways you can install the wireless-tools package
00:37:18 apt-get install in Debian, rpm for Red Hat or Mandrake, or you can always compile from source
00:37:28 so we've installed that
00:37:33 and we're going to configure it using iwconfig
00:37:39 which reports just like ifconfig
00:37:51 it reports what wireless cards are in and what wireless extensions we have
00:37:57 so right now it's not reporting anything
00:38:04 so we're going to configure it
00:38:12 we need a definition for ESSID
00:38:33 We should note at this point that Dean, on stage, is already using a kernel with a few things compiled in - iptables, netfilter, ip masquerading (NAT) and is using the pcmcia-cs package rather than the pcmcia support compiled into the kernel
00:38:52 we're going to assign the ESSID "lclive" to this card
00:38:57 the ESSID is a text identifier that identifies which network our machines are talking to
00:39:16 by doing this command:
00:39:18 we could choose any piece of text, as long as all the machines that want to talk to the network are using the same identifier
00:39:32 iwconfig eth1 ESSID="lclive"
00:39:40 err
00:39:44 there are some more options there ;)
00:40:11 iwconfig eth1 ESSID="lclive" mode="Ad-Hoc"
00:41:06 eth1 is the name Linux has given to the wireless network card in teh gateway machine - eth0 is the name of the regular network card that's already in teh machine and will be used to connect to the Internet
00:41:13 right-o
00:41:25 so the command didn't work here; turns out the card wasn't in the whole way
00:41:27 *grin*
00:41:35 that always helps ;-)
00:41:40 now we're going to type iwconfig again
00:41:42 err
00:41:44 iwconfig eth1
00:41:55 so it should show us that the wireless extensions are there
00:42:34 the audience is helping us out here by pointing out that some machines require that you do the above command on different lines
00:42:43 like setting ESSID and mode seperately
00:43:12 because they're finicky
00:43:29 and when in doubt, you can always edit the file manually
00:43:41 which I believe is the /etc/pcmcia/wireless.opts file
00:43:46 (at least in Debian)
00:43:46 that's the one
00:44:43 well, the laptop seems to be downright finicky
00:44:49 it doesn't like anything we're doing
00:44:57 keebler steps in to save the day!
00:45:01 wow
00:45:14 to recap for our irc viewers, the goal here is to connect two laptops together over a wireless network and to make one of those laptops a 'gateway' to the Internet
00:45:16 it turns out we had to set Ad-Hoc mode first *before* setting the ESSID on this one
00:45:53 so now the wireless interface works on this machine
00:46:08 and we need to be able to pass packets through this machine to the other one when we get it set up
00:46:21 There are various 'modes' that wireless networks can operate in, 'Ad-hoc' is the simplest to setup and doesn't require any special equipment or software or organization
00:46:31 so we're going to set up iptables
00:46:39 if you're using 2.2.x, you can use ipchains
00:46:45 or is it the other way around?
00:46:48 anyway
00:46:59 yep, 2.2 is ipchains
00:47:00 Dean's written a little script that does all this
00:47:08 we're using ipchains since the gateway box is 2.2
00:47:09 which we'll try to get pasted into IRC
00:47:29 and if we can't do it here, we'll put it into the log later on when we post it on Linux.com
00:47:41 basically we're setting up masquerading here
00:47:48 and there are 109826513515 tutorials out there to do this
00:47:52 :)
00:48:12 Masquerading will let you share one internet connection between multiple computers
00:48:32 So now we have the gateway all set up
00:48:43 and we're going to set up the client; we have a new volunteer
00:48:53 since this is the client, we don't have to set up ipchains/tables
00:49:28 we should just be able to repeat our steps to configure wireless-tools and set the ESSID and mode the same
00:49:38 something just segfaulted or something; bad.
00:49:39 ...
00:49:52 ok, we're running the same iwconfig commands as above
00:49:53 iwconfig segfaults sometimes, but still works
00:50:05 iwconfig eth1 ESSID="lclive"
00:50:14 iwconfig eth1 mode="Ad-Hoc"
00:50:31 now we're setting up the network using ifconfig, just like a wired network
00:50:59 (if anyone has any questions as we go through this, please /msg lcModerator)
00:51:10 we're using 10.10.1.0 as the network, 10.10.1.1 as the gateway
00:51:21 it should also be noted that there are gui interfaces to iwconfig to make things easier (gnome_wireless, etc)
00:51:28 255.255.255.0 as the netmask
00:51:56 we went back to the gateway to setup the wireless network settings
00:52:02 and then set the same stuff on the client
00:52:12 what's the range on this stuff again?
00:52:15 30-100 m
00:52:16 ?
00:52:21 indoors, 30-100 metres
00:52:29 so we could walk around the booth with the client laptop
00:52:33 outdoors, 300 metres+ depending on conditions/equipment
00:52:36 hook up a webcam, anything
00:52:53 dean's talking about interference; these cards run in the 2.4 GHz range
00:52:58 which is the same as many cordless phones
00:53:04 so you have to be careful of things like that
00:53:18 we have a Q from the audience
00:53:56 oh, someone from the audience brought up the point that the client can actually stay in managed mode, doesn't need to be ad-hoc as long as the gateway is
00:54:41 someone else brought up the fact that your gateway can be pretty much anything that can run Linux; so anything 386+
00:55:07 Security is a big issue; there's some security built in, but there are ways to get around that
00:55:15 there are different things you can do to boost security
00:55:22 someone in the audience mentioned nocat.net, who has a portal system you can download and run on small access point boxes to track users
00:55:23 you can restrict your network to certain MAC addresses
00:55:39 always need to run encryption, like SSH and SCP over your network
00:55:45 never transmit passwords in the clear ;)
00:55:49 There has been a lot of media coverage recently about how WEP (Wired Equivalent Privacy) isn't particularly secure
00:56:01 Does anyone here know if there is support for USB and wireless?
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00:56:30 someone here thinks it'll be in in around a month
00:57:11 these Orinoco cards do have a port where you can plug in an external antenna
00:57:17 to boost the range
00:57:30 and I've heard that there's a hack using a Pringles can as a directional antenna ;)
00:57:40 yes, that's also on nocat.net
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00:58:53 we're showing off the pringles can hack on nocats on the big screen right now
00:58:58 the audience loves it ;)
00:59:05 and if you can do that, and microwave ovens run at the same frequency, there must be some hack to produce an 800 watt amplifier if you take the oven door off
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00:59:10 "This stuff is really really cool" says someone in the audience
01:00:11 someone here's saying that the pringles can hack is not very different (in quality) from the commercial directional antennas
01:00:42 and of course much much cheaper ;)
01:01:10 Cisco (or someone) makes base stations
01:01:16 so you don't even have to have two computers
01:01:21 it's like the Apple Airport base
01:01:33 you can buy many different makes of Access Point
01:01:48 which can be used to setup larger, more structured wireless networks
01:02:20 we've got a disassembled AirPort station here
01:02:26 and it has one of the Orinoco cards in it
01:02:58 someone here just asked how much power you need to fry birds in the air
01:03:07 and someone else answered "about a watt and a half"
01:03:15 the people here are weird
01:03:38 :)
01:03:44 sounds like someone let the geeks in
01:03:58 someone asked if concrete was an issue
01:04:00 like concrete walls
01:04:13 the answer seems to be that it won't go through the concrete itself
01:04:25 but if there are any gaps or anything, it'll go through those
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01:06:35 ok, we're all finished up here
01:06:50 if anyone here has anything to add, go for it
01:06:51 the network works?
01:07:01 yep, we've been surfing for about 15 minutes ;)
01:07:08 great ;-)
01:07:18 deltab Diablo-D3 droidix 01:07:25 Diablo-D3 asks ' couldnt you theoretically set up a series of relay stations to relay a single tens of miles using 3 or 4 relay points along the way?'
01:07:25 Diablo-D3 asks ' couldnt you theoretically set up a series of relay stations to relay a single tens of miles using 3 or 4 relay points along the way?'
01:08:13 can anyone in the channel answer that?
01:08:24 if you can get line of sight, and buy the right antennas (or pringles tubes, I guess) then you can do it in one hop
01:08:54 ok, I'm going to log off here; thanks everyone for coming out!
01:08:56 :)
01:10:53 hey xeno, okay, how far will los communications work?
01:11:06 people have managed like 25 miles
01:11:29 but you need some serious preparation to make that work
01:12:16 hmm
01:12:41 think about it, if you can even do 25 miles, think about several hops of that
01:13:24 you'd have problems with reliability, actually *getting* LOS, etc
01:13:49 hmm... still
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01:15:21 there should be a way to do simple communications easly like that
01:15:57 heh.. i don't think you'll find that 25 mile transmission is simple by anyone's definition ;-)
01:16:13 what about even 5?
01:16:30 get about 100 people in a small area....
01:16:40 and set it up somehow so local hubs speak to each other
01:16:40 have a look on the 'net.. there are a number of people using 802.11 technology to do that
01:16:44 and share bandwith...
01:17:07 businesses are around doing exactly that
01:17:21 hmm
01:17:30 buisnesses are inherently evil too
01:17:36 I want something thats free
01:17:50 <-- flip- has quit (If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.)
01:18:04 just buy the hardware and poof
01:19:40 i mean, imagine what that could do
01:19:52 copper and fiber telecommunications could be worthless
01:20:29 i mean, you would only need them for Top Priority communications
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01:20:53 and the whole net structure could be mostly redone, having only the required nodes comunicating with each other
01:20:55 wireless is no substitute for a real wired connection
01:21:18 http://www.guerrilla.net/
01:21:32 i ment for under 11mbps stuff
01:21:35 not major servers
01:21:43 but major servers could have wireless apart of their network too
01:21:59 so you could skip the landlines, and just walk up to it and download stuff from it
01:22:04 well if you don't mind having your connection disappear every now and again, that's fine
01:22:10 all depends what you need
01:22:37 connections disappear every now and then anyhow
01:22:46 dialup, equipment failures
01:22:48 it all happens
01:22:55 not with the same frequency
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01:23:04 not when a police car drives by your house heh
01:23:32 I suggest you set yourself up a wireless network at home and get used to it's properties for a bit
01:23:40 it's wonderful, but you'll understand what I mean
01:24:23 wireless adds severe latency
01:24:44 --- xeno42 has changed the topic to: Last event was the 'No Strings Attached' event Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco - Logs will be up on Linux.com during the next week - See http://linux.com/ for details of other live events
01:24:49 10Mb/s latency is about 1 - 2ms for an ne2k card, not too bad
01:25:12 however wireless is usually about 10-15ms for roughly 2Mb/s
01:25:14 yeah well, i dont have the $ to do that
01:25:18 nor is it worth the money
01:25:22 i only have two boxen.
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