Originally Published: Tuesday, 11 September 2001 Author: IRC Staff
Published to: interact_articles_irc_recap/IRC Recap Page: 1/2 - [Printable]

No Strings Attached: Recaps from LinuxWorld

LinuxWorld and a few more Live! presentations are over. We went through two setups of a wireless network using Linux at LinuxWorld this year. Now that it's all over, it's time to look back at the presentations and view some IRC logs from the events.

August 28 log   Page 1 of 2  >>

21:04:05 --- Topic for #live is The 'No Strings Attached' event starts at 1pm PDT - Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco
21:04:05 --- Topic for #live set by xeno42 at Tue Aug 28 20:32:38
21:06:33 ok
21:06:39 we're now beginning the event!
21:07:50 hello!
21:08:20 the cards we'll be using in this event will be Lucent Wavelan Cards
21:08:29 the brand is orinico at the moment
21:08:38 though it seems the cards get renamed every other day
21:09:05 * Beret <-- voice of the tradeshow floor to the internet
21:09:12 --> sl4ck0ff (Andrew@cr492646-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com) has joined #live
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21:09:23 --> lc-show (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:09:26 <-- NightFang (nightfang@cc43093-a.abdn1.md.home.com) has left #live
21:09:32 time to get started all
21:09:38 --> todin (todin@usr1369-har.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #live
21:09:50 --> Johnny-O (adam@snort.org) has joined #live
21:09:52 --- xeno42 has changed the topic to: The 'No Strings Attached' event has started - Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco - Please direct your questions to lcModerator at the end of the installation
21:10:12 we're going to start off with a couple of definitions
21:10:13 <-- lc-show has quit (Read error to lc-show[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:10:21 what is 802.11 mean?
21:10:25 what does it mean?
21:10:29 --> lc-show (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:10:51 the 11Mbit wireless standard, earlier versions were called 802.11-FHSS and
21:10:51 802.11-DSS with a maxium rate of 2Mbit.
21:11:03 --> Aaton (bofh@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:11:27 all the 802.X standards are related to ethernet
21:11:30 --> Xunil96 (xunil@zoloft.xunil.net) has joined #live
21:11:33 and all have the same basic framework
21:11:33 --> toolafial (heath@dhcp5-249.calderasystems.com) has joined #live
21:11:41 (concepts of transmission, etc)
21:11:50 <-- Xunil96 (xunil@zoloft.xunil.net) has left #live
21:12:02 we're going to deal with security later in the event
21:12:33 so what do we need to setup a wireless network?
21:12:56 <-- Chunk_ (nate@sporting.a.beefhelmet.com) has left #live
21:12:58 we need at least two endpoints to the network
21:13:14 one may be connected to another network (such as the internet), those are usually dubbed "access points" or "gateways"
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21:13:22 whilst the other node woudl be the client
21:13:27 here today we're going to use a laptop and a desktop
21:13:34 one machine is a pIII 450
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21:14:01 --> keebler_ (keebler@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
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21:14:09 <-- keebler_ has quit (Write error to keebler_[204.192.63.93], closing link)
21:14:15 although, anything up from a 386 would work..
21:14:18 <-- jrocha has quit (Signed off)
21:14:38 --> Beret_ (beret@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:14:44 --- Dazman gives channel operator status to Beret_
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21:15:04 we have debian installed on both machines
21:15:06 we're getting volunteers to man the stations
21:15:06 --> marius- (marius@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:15:14 --- Dazman gives channel operator status to marius-
21:15:18 <-- JALH (root@pratchett.openprojects.net) has left #live
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21:15:18 <-- JALH (root@pratchett.openprojects.net) has left #live
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21:15:44 we have installed Linux kernel version 2.4.7
21:15:45 <-- keebler has quit (Ping timeout for keebler[204.192.63.93])
21:15:57 and we are using pcmcia-cs version 3.1.28
21:16:17 <-- lc-show has quit (Ping timeout for lc-show[204.192.63.93])
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21:16:34 what do we need enabled in the kernel in order to setup wireless networking?
21:16:35 <-- Beret has quit (Ping timeout for Beret[204.192.63.93])
21:16:47 <-- keyblur has quit (Signed off)
21:17:12 module support, iptables, disable pcmcia and enable wireless networking
21:17:13 you need wireless networking support, pcmcia support (since we are using pcmcia cards) as well as drivers for the specific card you have
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21:17:16 --> keebler (keebler@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:17:20 xeno42: ah
21:17:36 marius-: if you're using external pcmcia modules, then you don't need the pcmcia support in the kernel though
21:17:45 in this case we are
21:17:48 xeno42: this is true
21:17:51 we've installed pcmcia-cs already
21:17:55 so what do we do next?
21:18:04 --> Rhap101 (Digital@c795968-a.aurora1.co.home.com) has joined #live
21:18:18 should we insert cards?
21:18:18 <-- pickle_hammer has quit (Signed off)
21:18:18 should we insert cards?
21:18:18 <-- pickle_hammer has quit (Signed off)
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21:18:35 need to install your new kernel and the pcmcia package and the wireless tools package
21:18:41 ah
21:18:43 wireless tools
21:18:46 we should install wireless tools
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21:18:58 wireless tools provide nice tools to configure your wireless card
21:19:17 and install the wireless cards in each machine that's participating in the wireless network
21:20:00 so what's next?
21:20:11 we've installed wireless tools
21:20:21 when do we build the gateway?
21:20:47 marius-: what's involved in wireless tools?
21:21:05 at the core of wireless tools is a utility called 'iwconfig'
21:21:20 it provides a method to set configuration options for your wireless cards
21:21:26 what is the range of these cards?
21:21:29 such as what mode it is in, the name of the network, wep and such
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21:21:47 what are the range of these cards?
21:21:49 anyone know?
21:21:56 indoors, between 30m and 100m
21:22:04 the range really depends on the kind of environment you're in. depending on whethere there are a lot of obstacles around, you can get almost a 100 meteres
21:22:16 outdoors, 300m or so, depending on cards
21:22:20 wow
21:22:22 of course, the signals propagate more easily outdoors
21:22:22 that's impressive
21:22:23 --- marius- gives channel operator status to keebler
21:22:48 the range also depends on the type of card. different cards have different transmitting power, external antennas, etc.
21:23:05 also, the power that you are allowed to transmit is limited, since it is in an unlicenced band
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21:23:28 30m is about 100 feet
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21:23:50 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:23:52 so should we edit wireless.opts file now?
21:23:56 or do we need to do that?
21:24:13 the rules for power output and antenna gain can be found part 15 of the FCC rules
21:24:14 technically, it is not needed - but it is nice, since it provides an automated configuration interface for your wireless card
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21:24:42 iwconfig eth1 esid "lclive"
21:24:48 we can run a command like that
21:25:02 (i.e. when you put the card in, it gets assigned an appropriate essid, ip, and so on)
21:25:10 <-- Rhap101 (Digital@c795968-a.aurora1.co.home.com) has left #live
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21:25:15 iwconfig eth1 essid "lclive"
21:25:20 of course, that is less relevant with wireless since you usually roam around, but pcmcia-cs has options for changing as well (called 'profiles')
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21:25:34 that will create an ssid "lclive" if there isn't one to join
21:25:38 An ESSID is an "Extended Service Set ID" - Used to identify which network you're talking to
21:26:18 <-- lang (lang@linux-dhcp.molbio.ku.dk) has left #live
21:26:28 eth1 is the Linux device name of the wireless network card in the gateway machine; this machine has a normal network card in it as well, which is eth0
21:26:29 <-- Aaton- has quit (Signed off)
21:27:23 <-- Rhap101 has quit (Signed off)
21:27:26 now we'll bring up the interface
21:27:29 <-- koudelka has quit (Signed off)
21:27:30 with ifconfig like you would normally
21:27:35 for example
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21:27:48 /sbin/ifconfig eth1 192.168.1.1 netmask 255.255.255.0 up
21:28:08 that would assign the iop adress 192.168.1.1 to the eth1 interface
21:28:15 yep
21:28:22 The goal here is for the laptop on the show floor to talk to gateway machine over the wireless network, and for the gateway machine to forward network connections to the Internet from it's wireless eth1 card ti it's eth0 network card
21:28:31 --> dabeej_ (dabeej@cs2416211-64.houston.rr.com) has joined #live
21:28:55 the 192.168.0.0/16 block is special because it is an externally unrouteable ip block (actually a B class network); this is one that everyone is free to use in a way not connected to the internet
21:29:30 after bringing this interface up, the only thing left to do, is setup IP Masquerading on the gateway so that it will forward traffice onto the internet interface
21:29:37 <-- malaclypse (lon@adsl-216-144-164-150.dejazzd.com) has left #live
21:29:53 first
21:29:58 --- marius- gives channel operator status to [mbm]
21:29:58 we'll neable ip forwarding in the kernel
21:30:00 to do this
21:30:03 we'll do this
21:30:14 echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
21:30:14 "IP Masquerading" is a method for 'hiding' more than one computer behind a single IP address
21:30:39 <[mbm]> (it's a small subset of NAT)
21:30:40 it's useful if say you have several computers at home, and one dsl or cable connection
21:30:42 or even one modem
21:30:58 it will allow you to connect several computers with only one connection
21:31:04 in any situation where you are allocated only one external ip (that is routeable to the ineternet) - it is the thing to do
21:31:07 or use
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21:31:10 after we've enabled forwarding in the kernel
21:31:24 we'll now give an iptables command to masquerade the network
21:31:30 for example
21:31:36 /sbin/iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o eth0 -j MASQUERADE -s 192.168.1.0/24
21:31:55 though looking complicated, it's really not
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21:32:24 here we are telling the tcp/ip stack in the kernel that it is ok to masquerade anyone from the 192.168.1.[1-254] range
21:32:25 <-- punch (brian@uncontrolled.org) has left #live
21:32:46 and to forward those packets to the eth0 interface
21:32:59 (which is the one that is assigned an ip on the internet)
21:33:01 if you think about, it's quite impressive, because with one command, you're telling Linux to route some traffic
21:33:08 cheapest router I've seen :-)
21:33:37 we've overlooked one thing here on the showfloor
21:33:44 iptables is not installed :)
21:33:51 we're apt-get installing iptables
21:33:55 apt-get install iptables :)
21:34:13 iptables is the IP packet filter administration tool
21:34:16 <[mbm]> minor note, you might wish to add "iptables -A FORWARD -i eth0 -m state --state NEW,INVALID -j REJECT" since you enabled forwarding but didn't restrict it any
21:34:18 apt-get is a command used to install packages with Debian, for those that don't know
21:34:32 it's used to setup, maintain, and inspect the tables of the IP packet filter rules in the Linux kernel
21:34:38 severla different tables may be defined
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21:34:48 each table contains a number of built-in chains and may also contain user-defined chains
21:34:50 iptables may also be used to set up firewalling rules
21:34:52 it's quite customizable
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21:35:39 we're now done with the gateway
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21:35:45 we're going to start configuring the client machine now
21:36:24 Jessica has informed a member of the audience, they'll have to win the lottery before she lets them up on the stage
21:36:35 they seem to have an 'rm -rf / &' command running through their head
21:36:35 :)
21:36:47 we have a new volunteer to help configure the client
21:37:00 with the client it's nearly the same as the gateway as far as setting up
21:37:09 so for example
21:37:14 we already have linux 2.4.7 installed
21:37:18 and pcmcia-cs 3.1.28
21:37:25 so we're going to do our iwconfig command again
21:37:56 we're going to install wireless-tools and iptables on the client first
21:38:18 --> gREMLiNs (kittie@195.252.64.35) has joined #live
21:38:33 now, we can remove the pcmcia ethernet card in the laptop
21:38:38 and insert our wireless card
21:38:53 <-- SLaYeR (Mandrake@6534110hfc71.tampabay.rr.com) has left #live
21:38:53 (as soon as everything is done being installed)
21:38:53 <-- SLaYeR (Mandrake@6534110hfc71.tampabay.rr.com) has left #live
21:38:53 (as soon as everything is done being installed)
21:39:31 our iwconfig will nearly be the same
21:39:34 it will be something like
21:39:41 /usr/sbin/iwconfig eth0 essid "lclive"
21:39:51 eth0 because now it is the only ethernet card in the machine
21:40:06 we can ignore the error that it reports
21:40:12 as it will still work appropriately
21:40:29 now we can bring up the interface
21:40:29 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:40:29 now we can bring up the interface
21:40:29 <-- Uriah has quit (Read error to Uriah[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
21:40:41 /sbin/ifconfig eth0 192.168.1.2 netmask 255.255.255.0 up
21:40:49 that will bring up the client interface
21:41:48 --> Beret- (beret@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:41:48 "lclive" is an arbitrary identifier that's been picked for our new wireless network
21:42:03 could have chosen anything, as long as both machines used the same identifier
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21:42:15 --> keebler_ (keebler@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
21:42:18 all clients need to have the same ESSID to be able to talk to each other.
21:45:33 I think our friends on the show floor are having a few connections problems; stay with us
21:46:46 if anyone has any questions about what we've covered so far, /msg lcModerator with them please
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21:46:59 --- Dazman gives channel operator status to Beret-
21:47:09 dolbe asked 'how can an Orinoco router compare to setting up a homemade box? besides the price'
21:47:10 <-- gREMLiNs has quit (Signed off)
21:47:38 plug and play
21:47:47 as well as it comes with an 'external' antenna
21:47:57 marius__: can you setup a non 'ad-hoc' network with Linux do you know?
21:48:03 Access Points work in a different mode don't they?
21:48:06 yes, easier setup and probably a wider range. dedicated access points tend to be able to handle more traffic than ad-hoc/bss mode
21:48:54 --> Ralphis (Ralphis@cn688446-a.wall1.pa.home.com) has joined #live
21:48:55 <[mbm]> xeno42: access points tend to work in infrastructure mode where as cards will generally be in adhoc mode
21:49:18 --> NCorreia (haha@217.129.229.111) has joined #live
21:49:19 <[mbm]> adhoc is just point to point, infrastructure is managed
21:49:31 so there is some advantage to buying an access point if you're setting up a larger wireless network then
21:49:45 <-- darkstar54 (darkstar@207.35.163.28) has left #live
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21:50:48 dolbe asks if you can have more than one card running with Linux and setup a multi-point connection
21:51:21 <[mbm]> ofcourse.
21:51:31 <-- Ralphis (Ralphis@cn688446-a.wall1.pa.home.com) has left #live
21:51:47 <[mbm]> only issue to watch out for is conflicting netmasks
21:52:09 <-- ZarcyB (zarcyb@pc-62-31-70-113-ed.blueyonder.co.uk) has left #live
21:52:23 <-- search has quit (zelazny.openprojects.net card.openprojects.net)
21:53:36 are there any problems with frequencies clashing if you have more than one card in a box?
21:54:38 <[mbm]> 802.11b uses the DSS standard, digital spread spectrum .. you don't need to worry too much about reusing the same channel and the unique essid's will help keep things separate
21:55:27 well, the guys at LWCE should be pretty much done by now -- At the point they left us they were very nearly finished
21:55:31 what was left?
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21:55:38 <[mbm]> you may run into issues with microwaves, portable phones and other high power devices causing a few lost packet
21:55:40 they had the laptop up and running, and the gateway
21:55:59 i would imagine they are onto the testing stage right now.
21:56:28 <[mbm]> no doubt surfing linux.com with it
21:56:32 They needed to add scripts to their /etc/init.d and /etc/rc2.d directories so that the network would automatically be setup at boot time
21:57:11 and we were going to briefly cover wireless security
21:57:15 so let's go ahead and do that
21:57:36 would someone like to define what WEP is, and what the current problems with it are?
21:57:39 --> search (search@geeks.nerdfest.org) has joined #live
21:58:04 <[mbm]> wired equvilant privacy
21:58:48 <[mbm]> there's some issues with flaws in the keyspace limiting the potential combinations
21:59:34 <[mbm]> certain cards based on the prism2 chipset are cablable of capuring the raw packets in attempts to crack the password
22:00:17 <[mbm]> a task made easier by the fact that some wireless setupi programs only let you use A-Z (7bit ascii) for the WEP key
22:01:01 <-- Uriah- has quit (Read error to Uriah-[204.192.63.93]: Connection reset by peer)
22:01:09 so
22:01:19 WEP provides you with some security, but not a lot
22:01:27 <[mbm]> If you depend on secure wireless communications you should probably tunnel through your own encryption rather than depending on WEP
22:01:36 --> Uriah- (precision@204.192.63.93) has joined #live
22:01:54 <-- Anarkavre (anarkavre@151.201.249.236) has left #live
22:01:57 <[mbm]> it's secure enough to prevent the casual user from stumbling on the network but not much above that
22:02:19 so perhaps we should treat wireless networks like we treat the internet as far as security goes?
22:02:32 if you need it to be secure, use a secure protocol, like ssh, SSL (https web pages), etc
22:02:39 <-- Uriah- has quit (Signed off)
22:02:48 <[mbm]> definately, if you access a shell over wireless, ssh our such is recommended
22:02:58 is WEP difficult to setup with Linux?
22:03:12 (if anyone has any questions, please /msg lcModerator)
22:03:18 <[mbm]> iwconfig will let you enter in the wep keys easily enough
22:03:36 <[mbm]> all that's required is that all stations use teh same wep key
22:03:49 dolbe would like to know if anyone has recommendations for one make of wireless card over another
22:05:02 <[mbm]> depending on your budget and compatibility concerns you may still be able to find 2Mbit 802.11-FHSS cards for cheap
22:05:33 <-- Beret- has quit (http://beret.net)
22:05:34 <[mbm]> these cards are based on an older standard incompatible with the current 11Mbit protocols but the price tradeoff generally makes them interesting
22:06:05 <[mbm]> most of the new cards are based either on the prism2 chipset or the orinaco
22:06:32 L0ki wonders when 'full frame support' will be included in the wvlan/orinoco drivers.. anyone know anything about that?
22:06:39 <[mbm]> which means that most any card will work fine in linux, the difference being mostly the brand name on the thing
22:07:46 <[mbm]> no idea.
22:09:15 * keebler_ is away [autogone:20/l:on]
22:09:38 <[mbm]> oh for whoever asked about cards - some of the early cards lacked any decent wep support and lacked teh 'short preamble' type, when you're looking for a card see if it's got the wi-fi logo
22:09:54 ProAtWork asks 'my experience with cs and access points is wep does not work reliably.. does anyone have experience and better luck?'
22:10:29 <[mbm]> I've had no issues with wep, although considering I use some older cards I generally leave it off
22:10:51 <[mbm]> one problem that may occur is the lack of support for short preamble types
22:10:56 It's a shame that we've lost the connection with the show floor; I'm sure they have things up and running nicely there now
22:11:00 <[mbm]> this is a smaller packet header used by new cards
22:11:22 <[mbm]> you may have to reconfigure your access point for long preamble
22:11:26 With that in mind I'm going to un-moderate the channel so if you'd like to ask a question you can ask it directly
22:11:31 --- xeno42 sets mode -m #live
22:11:43 <-- hectate has quit ([BX] Time wasted: all of it)
22:11:51 we will be posting a log and a followup of this event to the linux.com web site in the near future
22:12:08 and the event will be running again tomorrow at 4pm PST
22:12:17 xeno42 but the pre-amble would be a function of the card in the AP yes?
22:12:18 er
22:12:29 correction: 4:30pm PDT tommorow
22:12:36 so if all the same cards are the same on the network I wonder why I had issues.. odd
22:12:58 --- mantra_ is now known as mantra
22:13:13 thanks guys :)
22:13:15 exit
22:13:17 <-- dolbe has quit (dolbe has no reason)
22:13:30 --> pytheus (imorg@66-90-179-192.grandecom.net) has joined #live
22:13:48 that was saucy
22:13:52 :D
22:14:01 <[mbm]> ProAtWork: newer wireless cards support both long and short preamble types
22:14:03 <-- mantra (mantra@06-202.024.popsite.net) has left #live
22:14:23 I don't know how old my cards are
22:15:06 <[mbm]> set them all to long preamble and you shouldn't run into that issue
22:15:26 <[mbm]> some cards have a flashrom for firmware updates so check the manufacturer
22:15:46 ok.. I don't remember seeing that option.. I do try to stay on latest firmware
22:16:01 --- xeno42 has changed the topic to: That was the 'No Strings Attached' event Live from Linuxworld in San Francisco - Same event will be running again tomorrow at 4:30pm PDT (29/Aug)
22:16:22 <[mbm]> also, there's different encryption lengs for wep
22:16:32 anyone know how cisco's cards are for raw frames?
22:16:35 <[mbm]> 60bit (same as 56bit) and 128
22:16:53 <[mbm]> 56 and 60 operate togather but don't work with 128
22:17:33 all my cards are 56bit
22:18:10 <[mbm]> 128bit encryption is a recent thing, linksys added support for it in their latest firmware
22:18:14 also no one talked about mac filtering on the APs, is that worth anything?
22:18:35 [mbm]: but 128bit encryption doesn't do you a lot more good as far as real security goes does it?
22:18:57 wrt the recent security problems with WEP I mean
22:19:00 <[mbm]> xeno42: does more than 56 but I wouldn't depend on it totally
22:19:00 Has anyone here gotten a host AP working on a prism card?
22:19:04 increasing key length doesn't do a lot for you
22:19:22 <[mbm]> xeno42: increases the keyspace in doing so
22:20:10 <[mbm]> ProAtWork: mac filtering works if you're not using wep or you're worries about someone cracking your wep password but it's somewhat of a pain to have to reconfigure it each time you add a card to the netword
22:20:16 <[mbm]> -network
22:21:00 --> lenny (lenny@AAmiens-101-1-1-170.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #live
22:21:53 --> SFalcon (SFalcon@24.17.87.250) has joined #live
22:21:59 zanee asked me earlier: can you explain the difference between 802.11a and 802.11b including the talks of the new turbo mode with transmission rates of up to like 100mbps
22:22:10 <-- garrett (garrett@cc295195-a.bartlett1.ga.home.com) has left #live (later)
22:22:58 <-- agl (agl@4.18.42.11) has left #live
22:23:07 <[mbm]> actually ieee is offering the pdf's of all the 802 protocols, been meaning to grab teh 802.11a one
22:23:24 <[mbm]> I'm sure the answer is in therel although not likely in plain english
22:24:12 <[mbm]> (http://standards.ieee.org/getieee802/802.11.html)
22:24:20 brb
22:26:33 If Microwaves use 2.4GHz also, does that mean I can use a wireless card to cook my food?
22:27:05 yes, but you need a high-gain amplifier
22:27:26 <[mbm]> JacobBrown: actually it's not the microwave itself but rather a side effect of the high voltages used




August 28 log   Page 1 of 2  >>